Comments on: Ableton Live 7 and the new 64-bit Summing Engine http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine Music. Or, Anything Anytime Any Place for No Reason At All. Musical alchemy rules. Mon, 05 Dec 2011 02:30:58 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: gorillanuts http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-2016 gorillanuts Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:28:22 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-2016 leedsquietman, thank you. Seriously. I figured the questions about ableton's audio quality didn't hold water, but have been banging around forums trying to suss out the truth. Glad to hear that what my ears have been telling me is true. leedsquietman, thank you. Seriously. I figured the questions about ableton’s audio quality didn’t hold water, but have been banging around forums trying to suss out the truth. Glad to hear that what my ears have been telling me is true.

]]> By: leedsquietman http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-2003 leedsquietman Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:28:11 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-2003 I have Cubase, and have used Logic, Samplitude, Sonar and ACID before. I have owned Live since 6. Live 6's reputation got a battering due to a very misinformed pace by musictech magazine, which did not mention things such as warping clips can have a noticeable impact on the sound. I compared non warped tracks in Live 6 , Cubase and Samplitude and did not notice ANY difference. I have 20 years of engineering experience. Null tests were done, and there was no difference. The majority of Live users on the forum are in accordance with this too. MOstly it's a placebo effect - people think that traditional long established DAWS have better sound, but it's not true. Live 7 - yes, they updated the audio engine to 64 bit mix summing, but honestly, I could not tell the difference there either and more null tests showed this to be the case also. Live's stretching algos were fine, the only bone of contention was that the Complex mode first introduced in Live 6 and licensed from Sonique, was Sonique efficient and not SOnique Pro - when Live 7 came out, some competitors, notably Reaper, Protools LE and Mackie Tracktion had updated to the SOnique Pro - however, ABleton Live 8 will include the Sonique Pro (Complex Pro) stretching, which is the best algorithm out there. One more thing - Kent mentions tracks above -3db being an issue - On a DAW mix, one should be leaving headroom, in a 24 bit mix ideally you should be leaving around 6db or more headroom, meaning th epeaks on each track should be no higher than -6db. Good mixing practice goes a long way to addressing sound issues caused by too hot levels, intersample clipping and lack of headroom. Mastering Engineers then have something to work with. I would say this as a very satisfied Live user (and I mix with it 90% of the time too, although I occasionally do render out and mix in Cubase but not because of quality issues, but better mixer layout on dual screens and less CPU) - don't worry about Live's quality audio wise, it is a myth that it is poor. I have Cubase, and have used Logic, Samplitude, Sonar and ACID before. I have owned Live since 6. Live 6’s reputation got a battering due to a very misinformed pace by musictech magazine, which did not mention things such as warping clips can have a noticeable impact on the sound. I compared non warped tracks in Live 6 , Cubase and Samplitude and did not notice ANY difference. I have 20 years of engineering experience. Null tests were done, and there was no difference. The majority of Live users on the forum are in accordance with this too. MOstly it’s a placebo effect – people think that traditional long established DAWS have better sound, but it’s not true.

Live 7 – yes, they updated the audio engine to 64 bit mix summing, but honestly, I could not tell the difference there either and more null tests showed this to be the case also. Live’s stretching algos were fine, the only bone of contention was that the Complex mode first introduced in Live 6 and licensed from Sonique, was Sonique efficient and not SOnique Pro – when Live 7 came out, some competitors, notably Reaper, Protools LE and Mackie Tracktion had updated to the SOnique Pro – however, ABleton Live 8 will include the Sonique Pro (Complex Pro) stretching, which is the best algorithm out there.

One more thing – Kent mentions tracks above -3db being an issue – On a DAW mix, one should be leaving headroom, in a 24 bit mix ideally you should be leaving around 6db or more headroom, meaning th epeaks on each track should be no higher than -6db. Good mixing practice goes a long way to addressing sound issues caused by too hot levels, intersample clipping and lack of headroom. Mastering Engineers then have something to work with.

I would say this as a very satisfied Live user (and I mix with it 90% of the time too, although I occasionally do render out and mix in Cubase but not because of quality issues, but better mixer layout on dual screens and less CPU) – don’t worry about Live’s quality audio wise, it is a myth that it is poor.

]]> By: Frank http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-1967 Frank Thu, 12 Feb 2009 05:02:15 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-1967 I have to agree with Kent, if only Abletons stretching algo's were better, I've always wondered why the weren't better. Oh well, do Kent's work around and it is the best way. Nice advice Kent. I have to agree with Kent, if only Abletons stretching algo’s were better, I’ve always wondered why the weren’t better. Oh well, do Kent’s work around and it is the best way. Nice advice Kent.

]]> By: Kent Sandvik http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-1830 Kent Sandvik Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:25:39 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-1830 If Ableton's time stretching algorithms were as good as Melodyne's... Meanwhile, the best you could do is to import content and use the RePitch algorithm but then you also need to keep track of the original BPM and use that as the baseline BPM when working. If Ableton’s time stretching algorithms were as good as Melodyne’s… Meanwhile, the best you could do is to import content and use the RePitch algorithm but then you also need to keep track of the original BPM and use that as the baseline BPM when working.

]]> By: John http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-1829 John Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:44:51 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-1829 Pillform, I was having the same problem and didn't think that I'd have to route tracks via Cubase so early in the production stages. Have you identified a work around for this yet? Pillform,

I was having the same problem and didn’t think that I’d have to route tracks via Cubase so early in the production stages. Have you identified a work around for this yet?

]]> By: PillFORM http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-1783 PillFORM Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:56:17 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-1783 I love ableton's flow, I can layout the backbone of a track in minutes and quickly get to the interesting stuff. But the overall sound had often left me a little sad. The lack of quality in ableton's mixing engine has driven me to become completely rewired. Routing all tracks into Cubase or Logic to maximize audibility, even while in early production stages. I love ableton’s flow, I can layout the backbone of a track in minutes and quickly get to the interesting stuff. But the overall sound had often left me a little sad. The lack of quality in ableton’s mixing engine has driven me to become completely rewired. Routing all tracks into Cubase or Logic to maximize audibility, even while in early production stages.

]]> By: Kent Sandvik http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-1313 Kent Sandvik Mon, 08 Oct 2007 07:06:50 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-1313 Here's actually a good link talking about audio and 64-bit mode: http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_im_sixty_four/ Here’s actually a good link talking about audio and 64-bit mode:
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_im_sixty_four/

]]> By: Kent Sandvik http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-1312 Kent Sandvik Sun, 07 Oct 2007 05:04:12 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-1312 Well, I've been reading Ableton forum related postings for the last 4+ years or so, and this comes up from time to time. And I'm usually the first to justify that the audio mixer in Ableton is not that bad, you just need to avoid using excessive warp modes for most tracks as those eat up the transients, and be careful with hot signals. Well, I’ve been reading Ableton forum related postings for the last 4+ years or so, and this comes up from time to time. And I’m usually the first to justify that the audio mixer in Ableton is not that bad, you just need to avoid using excessive warp modes for most tracks as those eat up the transients, and be careful with hot signals.

]]> By: ztw http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-1311 ztw Sun, 07 Oct 2007 00:09:18 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-1311 Interesting, I find it weird howerver to mention the "bad reputation" thing in the article, as I think its forum crap one should not give the exposure you gave here. Interesting, I find it weird howerver to mention the “bad reputation” thing in the article, as I think its forum crap one should not give the exposure you gave here.

]]> By: Kent Sandvik http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-1310 Kent Sandvik Sat, 06 Oct 2007 23:33:47 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-1310 Yes, I would like to test the side chaining next. I don't think there's an explicit NDA, any new features are published by Ableton Live, at their site, so it's more of an exploration phase now for anyone testing out the betas. Try to jump in on the next beta seeding -- it usually requires polling their beta web site to find out when the next round is opened up. Yes, I would like to test the side chaining next. I don’t think there’s an explicit NDA, any new features are published by Ableton Live, at their site, so it’s more of an exploration phase now for anyone testing out the betas. Try to jump in on the next beta seeding — it usually requires polling their beta web site to find out when the next round is opened up.

]]> By: Oliver Chesler http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/comment-page-1#comment-1309 Oliver Chesler Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:52:15 +0000 http://www.kentsandvik.com/2007/10/05/ableton-live-7-and-the-new-64-bit-summing-engine/#comment-1309 About a year ago I did my own personal test where I summed a huge amount of audio files in Ableton and then in Cubase and no one I played the files to could tell the difference. I'm not saying there isn't something going on with Live 6 and crunching audio because I do hear that sometimes.... its just not at the basic render across summing level. Yes again keeping levels low really improves things. I am very excited about Live 7. They really added tons of new stuff. Have you tried to Sidechain using the Autofilter yet? That sounds very interesting. Please post here what you can without getting in trouble with the NDA. About a year ago I did my own personal test where I summed a huge amount of audio files in Ableton and then in Cubase and no one I played the files to could tell the difference. I’m not saying there isn’t something going on with Live 6 and crunching audio because I do hear that sometimes…. its just not at the basic render across summing level. Yes again keeping levels low really improves things.

I am very excited about Live 7. They really added tons of new stuff.

Have you tried to Sidechain using the Autofilter yet? That sounds very interesting. Please post here what you can without getting in trouble with the NDA.

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